“I don’t believe in a lot of things…”
May 24th, 2010
Ok, I think I am satisfied with this ending. Very calm (except the cliff fight, which almost gave me a heart attack). Very Narnia. I haven’t been able to think of any huge unanswered questions or letdowns.
I get that the island life was reality but that it was some kind of purgatory where one could find redemption, and that the flash-sideways timeline was a “postmodern purgatory” (as Mikey puts it) where they got to live out a “better life” (most of them) after they died – on island, later in life, whatever, but I am still trying to wrap my brain around people who are not in the church at the end:
- are they not in the church because they have not died yet, and this is somehow all about Jack’s death (as in Hurley had his own gathering at the church when he died in reality, etc. etc.)?
- does the flash-sideways timeline continue for all of them until they are all dead and ready to move on together?
- do they each have their own Christian Shepherd and he just happens to be Jack’s?
- if they ARE all ready to move on together, why is Michael not there? I get why some people are missing – Eko, Ana Lucia… but why not Michael if this is Everyone Who Gets to Go?
Does Ben not “move on” because he won’t accept it, or because he is staying behind to be the one who helps others move on? I think it’s ultimately more Hindu than Christian – I think it’s more enlightenment than heaven… with “flashes of awareness” along the way.
Ok – I’m exhausted.
Much to ponder.
I am so jealous of the people who have very carefully avoided all LOST conversations over the past six years, knowing they’d watch it eventually.
Edit: <— thought of something: not finding out for sure who made the recording of the numbers (it was Hurley, right???)
May 24th, 2010 at 1:20 am
I wrote like three pages while watching this episode but I’m not ready to get intellectual about it. jack walked into that chuch and it was full of old friends and I thought of SYC and lost it, and then there were desmond and penny and I couldn’t see anymore.
May 24th, 2010 at 7:03 am
quick thoughts to our thoughts
1) Not in the church because they are not ready yet, i.e., “Ana Lucia is not ready yet” as Desmond said. Ben said he has things to work out first.
2) Flash sideways…like any type of purgatory/afterlife, it would exist outside of time, therefore, when people died does not matter.
3) hmmmm….maybe…but not really important to the story.
4) Michael not there…see answer #1.
I liked it. Quite a bit. Still think most of this season was a waste…but it was good nonetheless.
May 24th, 2010 at 7:50 am
That should read “quick thoughts to your thoughts”
May 24th, 2010 at 9:24 am
I don’t think the island was purgatory. I think it was actually a crazy ass island. I don’t think the flash sideways was purgatory either in any traditional or “post modern” sense. I don’t think they had to work their way out of it unless they wanted to. I think it was the confusion that can happen between death and the light (Hey there Ghost Whisperer). The people who didn’t go: Ben, Eloise, Michael, Widmore either don’t know they are dead yet or know and choose to not go for whatever. Eloise doesn’t want to go because she’s enjoying her son and still feels bad about killing him, etc. But then again I get the feeling she didn’t get to go to the light, but that’s just me. Maybe Ben wanted to wait for Alex. The others weren’t really the core group so why would they span time together and/or meet up to cross over (Hey, Buffalo 66)?
I’m still bothered that Jack saw Christian at the hospital before… when he was drunky Jack. That is screwing with me. He wasn’t smokey and I don’t think Jack was dead…eeeeee. Also, I was having Spock & the warp engine & Poltergeist deja vus the whole time. They should have thrown a tennis ball into the water fall. That would have ruled.
May 24th, 2010 at 10:42 am
I only mean it’s a purgatory in the sense that you get a chance for redemption, not that it was something they HAD to work through before they could move on. I think the smoke monster & Eko make this pretty clear – the first time he comes face to face with it it looks at images from his life (the horrible things he’s done vs. becoming a killer because he did something good to save his brother) and it lets him live… gives him another chance, literally, and he starts to build a church, and then when he comes face to face with it again he says “i have only done what i have to do in this life to survive and i have nothing to be sorry for” (<— something like that)…….. and it kills him. And he's not in the church at the end. So is he not ready to move on, or does he not go where everyone else is going because he "didn't repent"?
Ana Lucia is "not ready yet" because she's still a crooked cop and still working herself out in the flash-sideways "purgatory" or whatever it is, or is she NEVER going to move on because she is what she is?
I only wonder about everyone having "their own Christian" because I still kind of feel like this was exlusively Jack's death and moving on experience. Like everyone who had already been "enlightened" and reached awareness was there and waiting to help him along, with his father heading up the pack. Some people weren't there yet, and when they DO get there, everyone in the church plus Jack will be waiting for THEM, and they will have whoever is crucial in their lives explaining it all to them. I don't think Christian Shepherd is special or "godlike" or any of the things floating around – I think he's just the person for Jack.
I think Ben doesn't go in, essentially, because the writers want us to always wonder the biggest question of the series – is he good or evil? Is he sitting outside because he can't move on for bad reasons, or because he wants to hang behind for good reasons (waiting for Alex, being a good enlightened person, etc.)? Even though he wasn't a real blood father to Alex in life, does he want to be the father who helps her move on in death?
Head still spinning – dreamt about LOST all night long.
May 24th, 2010 at 10:52 am
I don’t think this was Jack’s exclusive experience at all. I think that they all got enlightenment together, because of Desmond. That’s why they all had their moments with their loved ones. I don’t think they all need Christian. Kate knew what was happening from when she helped deliver Aaron, Sawyer knew he was dead when he hugged Juliet. But, Jack, being a “man of science” was a little harder to convince and his dad is what finally got him there. Christian said “nobody goes alone” and that they all made that place together so they could find each other. I don’t think this is just Jack’s crossing over. I think they are all going. Ben isn’t because he still has some things he needs to work on (alex) and needs to be at peace with himself before he can go. Eloise and Daniel don’t have to go if they aren’t ready. The people that are in the church are there because Desmond helped them figure out what was going on and they are all ready.
I think the island was real, that the stakes on the island were real. That the overall story was definitely about redemption. And, like Mario said, the sideways this season is outside of time, and it doesn’t matter when people died. I think Christian explains it pretty well to Jack at the end. Eko is not in the church at the end because they couldn’t get the actor to come back for the finale – I wouldn’t read too much into his absence.
May 24th, 2010 at 11:06 am
^^^ is that not Mario, or are you talking about yourself in the third person?
That all makes sense – I guess I feel like it’s “Jack’s” because the whole series has been the “Jack Saga” as a lot of people put it, so it kind of focuses on him more than anything.
So when Michael and the rest are ready, they cross over alone? Even though they all “built the place together”?
May 24th, 2010 at 11:07 am
(This episode seems to focus a lot on Jack, I mean – not all of the last few leading up to it do.)
May 24th, 2010 at 11:08 am
that last post was from Jenn.
May 24th, 2010 at 11:10 am
oh and Jenn, if that’s Jenn, I know they couldn’t get the guy who played Eko to come back (and Michael too, right?), but do you think he would have fit anyway? I think it’s perfectly convenient that he wouldn’t come back.
May 24th, 2010 at 11:13 am
Oh, and there was the whole bit about Michael appearing to Hurley and “not being able to move on”… Eko appeared to him too, to play chess.
dfhauijflksajdflkasierhnsalkxcjzoi;p
May 24th, 2010 at 12:14 pm
Can someone help me? I buy that Jack died on the island, after being stabbed. I buy that Christian is the one helping “just” Jack. But WHO DID Jack see when he was having his breakdown after escaping the island? Was he possibly dead then? Or was he just hallucinating? Smokey couldn’t leave the island. No one ever brings this up. Damn it!
May 24th, 2010 at 12:15 pm
I figured it out. Nevermind.
May 24th, 2010 at 12:45 pm
on a scale of 1-10 i give it an 8/9, only taking a couple points off because there are a few loose ends i wanted tied up. i’ve always been interested in the whole children/babies thing on the island and they never really solidified that.
island = definitely real.
sideways = i totally agree with em and mario and jenn– it’s a different kind of purgatory.
me = heartbroken that i won’t have this in my life anymore : (
I LOVE that they ended it with this kind of mystery that we can all debate. Oh, and the fact that Vincent arrived so that Jack wouldn’t have to “die alone” pretty much made my night.
<3 <3
May 24th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Thank you, Ben, for apologizing to Locke.
Thank you for making Jack be a winner. I always thought he would be.
Thank you, Kate, for killing Smokey, loving Jack and helping Claire.
Thank you, Hurley, for asking Ben to help you.
Thank you, Desmond, for risking it all to try something you thought for sure would work.
Thank you, Claire, for facing your fears instead of running from them.
And thank you, Vincent, for one of the most emotionally moving scenes I have ever seen on television. While I feel like Janet and have a hard time accepting some loose ends and some good ol’ fashioned manipulating (I thought for sure the sideways was a result of the bomb in the 70s) it was all worth it and I’m sad it’s over.
May 24th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
Thank you, Kelly, for being awesome.
<3
May 24th, 2010 at 3:11 pm
Thank you, Janet, for pointing out that Kelly is awesome.
May 24th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
Hurley runs the island differently. http://cl.ly/c765495205fae21c701f
May 24th, 2010 at 3:54 pm
Aw, thanks guys. *blush*
May 24th, 2010 at 4:06 pm
I kind of took it as they all died from the plane crash, but that they were “living” (already dead) on the island and had to do all that they did on it. Jack’s death was either in the exact place he was when he landed on the island, or very close to it and the scenes that they showed with the plane crash and luggage and whatnot all over made it seem like it was still that day they all crashed on the island.
If that’s not what actually happen, I think it’s still a possibility that somewhat makes sense. (ha)
The island was for them to work out what they had done in their real lives…make good with the decisions they had made when they were alive and ultimately decide what kind of people they were in order to move on. If they didn’t want to move on, they didn’t have to, which explains why some people weren’t “ready” yet and didn’t appear in the church. Like Khara said–Ghost Whisperer rings a bell here.
I think the meeting at the church was definitely Jack’s crossing over only (and Christian’s but Jack being the only *main* character cross-over)…I think all of the others did it previously and they were just back to get him and they’ll come back for all of the others when it’s their time. Jack went in the back entrance to find his person and maybe you can’t go in that room UNLESS it’s your time to cross over. Maybe that room doesn’t exist for the others who have already crossed over? So Christian was waiting on Jack to go forward so that he could too?
Vincent laying with Jack made me sob like a baby.
The light at the end was somewhat cheesy…but I guess it was the best option to show he had crossed over finally.
May 24th, 2010 at 4:07 pm
Mario–lol at the sweat stains on the cartoon! That’s awesome.
May 25th, 2010 at 1:47 pm
dudes. Now I think there were two levels of afterlife before the cross over. Or maybe not.
May 25th, 2010 at 9:31 pm
Ah yes, just want to say 2 things
1. I believed it ended correctly, somehow completing the circle of events and…..
2. What the heck am I gonna do on Tuesdays now!
May 26th, 2010 at 2:07 am
I’m willing to accept the less than perfectly clear explanation as to who died when, what happened to the people who weren’t in the church, etc. Except for one thing: why was Penny in the church? Did she die at some point that I missed/forgot about? Or is it just that anybody who comes anywhere near the island is actually dead?
May 26th, 2010 at 5:02 am
good question…why the heck WAS Penny in the church?
May 26th, 2010 at 9:01 am
Dudes, they did not all die in the plane crash. I think we have to believe what Christian Shepherd told us at the end – everything that happened on the island actually happened. Christian Shepherd told us that some of those people died before Jack (like Charlie) and some LOOONG after (like Hurley & probably Kate and Penny and Desmond and Claire and Sawyer and anyone else who was still alive outside of the sideways timeline at the end of the show) but that they had built that place together so they could all find each other again. That sideways world, where they all ended up in the church is outside of space and time and so it doesn’t matter when they all died, they all ended up there together. It was all of their crossing over, just told through Jack’s perspective since he’s been our main character all along. He needed more convincing (being a man of science) and his dad was there to help him through. Nobody goes over alone is what Christian said. All of those moments when our Losties saw flashes of the island were them remembering their lives and realizing that in the sideways world, they were actually dead. They all met in the church so that they could cross over together.
Everything that happened on the island was about redemption – but not because they were dead – because people can be redeemed in their living life after doing terrible things.
May 26th, 2010 at 2:41 pm
but not all of the characters did terrible things before going to the island…some did, sure, but some of them were pretty innocent before they got to the island ie: Sun, Claire, Jack, Hurley, ‘etc.
May 26th, 2010 at 2:50 pm
Sun – was having an affair and told her husband other huge lies, not to mention was going to leave him
Claire – was going to give her baby up for adoption (which she seemed to think was a horrible thing) and was responsible for the car accident that almost killed her mother, which she knew but wouldn’t admit to anyone other than her (comatose) mother
Jack – was a bad husband and a questionable son, although he always TRIED to do the right thing, he wasn’t good at recognizing what the right thing was… or recognized it too late, like when his patient’s daughter kissed him and he let her – for a minute – even though he was married.
Hurley – I don’t think Hurley DID anything horrible, but Christian said that they were “all flawed and all alone”. I can only assume that for Hurley, this deals with his deep weight issues and his unwillingness / inability to face them, the fact that he has no one to face them with, and the fact that he knows his life is not going in the direction that he’d like, but won’t do anything about it.
May 26th, 2010 at 3:24 pm
I spent most of this episode exclaiming “ROSE AND BERNARD!”, “SHANNON AND BOONE!”, “DANIEL AND CHARLOTTE!”, “LAPIDUS!”, etc. I loved everyone showing up, everyone remembering everything from their lives. very emotional.
I’m glad ben redeemed himself. I couldn’t believe it when he put himself in danger to save hurley from that tree.
lots of good quotes in this one. “…but I do believe in duct tape”, for starters.
kate: “‘christian shepherd’? seriously?”
hurley, after making the yoda reference: “I got a bad feeling about this…”
hurley: “there are rules, dude.” (that *had* to be a big lebowski reference, right?)
juliet and sawyer: “we should get coffee sometime.” “I’d love to, but that machine ate my dollar, I only got one left!”
jimmy kimmel, to harold perrineau–”first of all, thank you for killing ana lucia.”
I agree with the interpretation that the island was a real place (just an extremely weird one) and that everyone was actually there, and alive; and that the flash-sideways was a spiritual gathering place for them all after they had died, and they went “further up and further in” together. as for the missing persons at the end, the “they haven’t died yet” or “they aren’t ready to move on yet” arguments don’t work, as the alt-world is outside time. it’s a mistake to try to rationalize that within the story; it’s just “they were unavailable” or (in eko’s case) “AAA demanded five times what the studio was willing to pay him”.
now…”I haven’t been able to think of any huge unanswered questions or letdowns.” really?!
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1936291
the show spent several seasons telling us that the gradual discovery of the history and workings of the island, the rules of its reality, were the point of the show. some viewers may not care about that, but many (especially science fiction fans) find a lot of enjoyment in that sort of thing. as my friend jason put it: “What did people talk about at the end of season 1, ‘do you think Jack and Kate will get together and will Locke ever be fulfilled?’ Or did they say, ‘what the hell is in that hatch? Why can Locke walk?’”
and then they completely abandoned that and made it a vague spiritual tale about moving on, with weird hieroglyphs and buildings and stuff just props to be introduced and discarded. I didn’t want or expect them to explain *everything*, but they repeatedly contradicted the reality they’d already established, and so much of what they left unanswered just feels like “we forgot” or “we changed our minds”. I think they betrayed their audience’s trust.
I’m not gonna lie, though, the finale was a great emotional catharsis.
May 26th, 2010 at 4:17 pm
I agree with you about the unanswered questions, Adrian. I watched that collegehumor thing earlier today and I was pissed off at how much stuff really did go unanswered. But, I always wanted the story to be more about the characters. So, even though I totally agree that they changed their minds, changed directions and contradicted themselves, I felt satisfied with the conclusion because, for the most part, the character development was good.
I missed Ben jumping in front of the tree for Hurley! How did I miss this?
May 26th, 2010 at 5:05 pm
Adrian – I’ve been waiting to hear your thoughts. Remember, I posted this at… 12:30 on Sunday. I’ve thought of a few things since then. I do agree with you, but like Jenn, I think I care more about the characters so I’m still satisfied.
Lebowski – had to. I hope hope hope.
This video is really funny. And maddening. And funny. I’m going to watch it twice.
May 26th, 2010 at 7:15 pm
My problem with that video is we do know some of those answers. They didn’t come out and say some of them, but you can figure them out. There are big questions left unanswered, but some of the stuff they bring up is pointless. And, the credibility is off. Doesn’t it say “who decided to kill all of the OTHERS”, referring to Ben gassing them, when it should be “DHARMA”?
May 26th, 2010 at 8:57 pm
Yes, I’m dorky.
May 26th, 2010 at 10:25 pm
oh, forget the video, that was just for fun. most of those aren’t the things I think they really dropped the ball on.
May 26th, 2010 at 10:35 pm
Kelly, you’re right – there were some things that were answered and some things that were wrong, but it still made me laugh and I DO want to know:
Why did the psychic insist Aaron had to be raised by Claire?
Who sent Kate the letter?
Why are supplies still being dropped?
Why is Walt so special?
Why does Danny say Jack wasn’t on Jacob’s list?
Why can’t women have babies?
What was Juliet’s weird brand that she got as punishment?
Why does Richard think he saw everyone in the 1977 Dharma picture die?
What was the lighthouse?
Do we know any of those things and I’m just forgetting? I don’t necessarily think they are important, it just bothers me :)
May 27th, 2010 at 8:29 am
I forgot about Richard saying that. So, did Richard see the bomb explode at the hatch & not know that the explosion plopped our Losties ahead to present day? Did he just assume they died. I guess that makes sense.
May 27th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
Right, Jenn, he didn’t know they made it out alive — YET. He knew about the bomb going off and assumed they were dead, I guess.
Here’s my take on some of the other questions.
I think that Walt is just special as in a “psychic kind of special” and he was a candidate and that’s why he was taken. It doesn’t explain him apparating to Locke and Shannon, though. I think we’re just to assume that the Island is a wacky place and he was maybe able to “channel” himself to them to get his message across.
The “real” psychic told Claire to raise her baby because he could see that they had to be together, and, ultimately, if we believe Lapidus safely lands the plane, she does get to be with him again. Maybe the adoptive couple were doomed and that’s all he saw. Should we read into the sideways world that the adopted couple would have split anyways? Or is Sideways world off topic as far as anything real?
May 27th, 2010 at 1:23 pm
The psychic admitted he was a fraud in one of the episodes. So everything he said can be thrown out.